Talk:Mary Garden

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Mary Garden Unsourced Tag

I have left a note for User:Ravenswing as follows:

I see you have left an 'unsourced' tag on the Mary Garden article despite the fact there is a sources section with three references. I am puzzled. Can you tell me why you put the tag? - Kleinzach 11:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the problem was that the references weren't sufficiently related to the section tagged? Anyway I have now addressed this by adding some text. I've removed the tag. - Kleinzach 16:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Was Mary Garden ever an American?

Mary Garden is included in the categories American female singers, American opera singers, and Scottish-Americans but I believe she always considered herself Scottish. She came from Aberdeen and spent the last 30 years of her life there. Is there any evidence at all that she ever had American citizenship? - Kleinzach 17:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As non-one has come up with any evidence that MG had American citizenship I have culled the relevant cats. - Kleinzach 17:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually she was an American citizen. Grove describes her as an "American soprano of Scottish birth".Nrswanson (talk) 03:32, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Garden considered herself Scottish, by nationality, and French, by training. This is what Garden herself says: ""We were all born in Aberdeen . . . As far as we could see, the family for several generations, was from Aberdeen on both sides. We were Scotch through and through. That, I think is what makes me so independent."

Mary Garden was a British subject all her life. She didn't even apply for American citizenship until 1924, and it wasn't even granted until a few years after this. (She claimed to be resident in the US when in fact she wasn't — involving tax problems.) Between 1924 and 1937 she lived most of the time in France (when she wasn't working) and from 1937 to 1967 she lived in Scotland.

In front of me I have 'Mary Garden's Story' (autobiography) and the biography by Turnbull. (These are more authoritative than Richard Fletcher's little article in Grove.) The introduction to Turnbull talks about the "Young Scots girl who took over in mid-performance the title role Charpentier's Louise in Paris".

In the circumstances, the original lead is basically correct:

Mary Garden (born Aberdeen, February 20, 1874 - died Inverurie, January 3, 1967) was an important Scottish soprano with a substantial career in France and America in the first third of the 20th century.

--Klein zach 05:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since she applied for and was actually given American citizenship than I think she can and should be called an American somewhere in the lead. Further, she lived in the United States from the time she was 9 through the time she was 22, and spent at least 4 years studying singing in Chicago before going to train in Paris (not to mention that one of her most important teachers there was an American). Also, the majority of her time between 1922-1931 (with the exclusion of 1930) was spent in Chicago not just for performing but "directing" the opera company there. Perhaps she didn't stay there while she wasn't working but she was certainly working a lot more than not. Then of course there is her work for MGM following her retirement as well as her lectures/masterclasses in the United States. I think it is rather unfair and misleading to not acknowledge how much of her life and career was spent in the United States. I see no reason not to acknowledge both her Scotch and American heritage in the lead. Further, Garden's autobiography is notoriously full of lies and exagerations which were encouraged by her publishers. You have to take everything in there with a grain of salt.Nrswanson (talk) 18:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Many, many singers have changed passports for expediency. Garden was more interested in avoiding taxes than anything else. Also note she was director-general of the Chicago Opera from 14 Jan 1921 to 23 April 1922, though she continued to sing there until January 1931. --Klein zach 08:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mary Garden year of birth

was it 1874 or 1877 just for the record. When I first ran across Mary in opera books she was always listed as being born in 1877. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koplimek (talk • contribs) 20:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to every source I have found, she was born in 1874.Nrswanson (talk) 03:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Garden herself spread the (false) idea she was born in 1877, perhaps because in reality she had been born shortly after the marriage of her parents. --Klein zach 06:00, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More inaccuracies

It seems a number of inaccuracies have been introduced into this article. I've already referred to Mary's nationality being wrongly changed from Scottish to American (above). Here is a statement from the lead:

"She became a friend and close associate of Jules Massenet, in whose operas she excelled."

And here is Garden herself in her autobiography, pages 137-138:

"Chérubin brought me into contact with Massenet . . . I went twice a week to discuss the part with him. I'm afraid I never cared for Massenet . . . He hadn't the character I like in a man, and he hadn't the genius of Debussy, not by a long shot."

In fact, she had a much closer relationship with Debussy - a large part of her autobiography is about him. Perhaps it would be a good idea if Nrswanson reviewed the changes he's made to this article? (I don't have time now to go through it line by line pointing out the mistakes.) --Klein zach 06:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have merely repeated content in the sources available to me Kleinzach and have faithfully reproduced the content without copywriting. (even the supposed spelling error of Sybyl is how Grove spelled the name.) If you want to complain about errors blame the sources and not me. Rather than being a superior ass per usual why don't you use your time to do something constructive like improve the article yourself.Nrswanson (talk) 06:39, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Uncivil. --Klein zach 07:02, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And you aren't? Your tone towards me is consistantly hostile and negative and has been for months. I've tried several times to work with you in a positive way but it doesn't seem to get any better. Frankly I am tired of being crapped on by you. Anyway my point stands, all of the content is in the sources which, though not flawless, are generally considered reliable. Also, I wouldn't use Garden's autobiography as a source. It's full of lies and exaggerations, a point several sources have pointed out. Just because she wrote that about Massenet doesn't mean it's accurate.Nrswanson (talk) 13:22, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mary Gardens later years in Aberdeen..

sirs..my mother know Mary Garden quite well in the fifties and early sixties..according to all who knew her she was a wonderful person..there was talk of her setting up a trust for kids from disadvantaged backgrounds..did it ever happen?..my mother and her seemed to enjoy each others company and would talk for hours..they met socialy a few times..the favourite eating place was Fullers at the top of Union Street, Aberdeen..it was regarded as a wee bit upper class..my mother was very upset when Mary died..i would like to think they were good friends..when my own mother died she had some items that didnt seem to fit in with my mums style..jewelery mostly..often wonder if Mary really was as generous as everyone said?..john watt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.127.119.187 (talk) 08:46, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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